Gracedieu Lass's Journal

Enjoy the trip, both of you. And bring back lots of lovely photos. Wish I was in your shoes!!!

best of luck on your trip and we look forward to hearing all about the trip and the pictures. take care.

Have a great time at Chelsea, for all of us :D Love your photos. Some little rarities in there but I do love the 'sea' of hostas.

Is it Chelsea time already?? Have a great time.

enjoy. expecting loads of pics, but there again you'll be too busy enjoying the sights to photgraph them.

Love all the colour in your garden

Lovely photos thanks Mary, and thanks Paddy for taking them.  The veronica looks so good; had I just seen it in a pot in a garden centre it isn't something I'd have coveted but having seen it in your garden I think its divine.  The geranium with the purple flower you gave me is flowering now, when you get a chance you might let me know the name.  Hope you have a fabulous time in Chelsea we'll be looking out for you on the telly.

Its Tuesday here and hope you and paddy are having a marvellous day in chelsea and that you get back before the Ashcloud descends! However if your journalis blank for a while well know ye were marooned!

Enjoy Chelsea.  Hope you have no problems getting back with the ash cloud.  Love the colour on the poppy above?

Many thanks for all the kind comments. Back now safe and sound. We landed in Heathrow at 7.30a.m. on Sunday and were in Great Dixter by 10 o' clock - Mary's speedy driving!

Great Dixter was, again, for me very disappointing. I reckon it is the most over-rated garden in England and that Christopher Lloyd wrote fiction, a fiction I always enjoyed reading, I must admit.

Sissinghurst in the afternoon and it was an absolute delight though the white garden had yet to reach its best this year.

All day Monday in Kew Gardens, 10a.m. to 6.30p.m. and loved it, always love it. Can skip the glasshouses, just a quick peep in and could ramble the gardens forever.

Tuesday, in Chelsea Flower Show at 8.10a.m and left around 7.30p.m. The time just flew. Didn't think the gardens were great - signs of the economic climate, no obvious great new plants to see in the gardens. Marquee was outstanding.

Wednesday, walked central London and back to the Chelsea Physic Garden in the afternoon. Evening flight home.

Lots of photographs - I have about 1,500 and Mary has her own. Will sort bit by bit and post a few.

Paddy 

Sounds like a great trip and the weather looked great on TV looking forward to seeing your pictures mind you I think that the pictures of your own garden top the lot

Welcome back Paddy and Mary we were all thinking of you two and envying you as we watched the coverage.  You will know by now that Ambrose Congreve died yesterday in London, he had travelled to see the Chelsea show but didn't get to it this year.  Lets hope the state do his memory proud now with the garden.  I'm looking forward to seeing the photographs when you get your energies back.

Great trip. Very interesting to hear your verdict of the various gardens. Love to hear more - why was Great Dixter such a disappointment? were you there before?

I quite liked the fact that Chelsea wasn't about really expensive installations and NEW plants but more about combinations of plants, ecology and growing food. It may have been different in reality though.

Moya,

I find that Great Dixter is a great jumble of plants. The expressed thought was that it was a wild collection/jumble of exotic and varied planting contained within a strong structure - hedges, walls, pathways etc but the "structure" has to a huge degree lost its structure. The hedges are left grow to the point of being shapless and unkempt. General maintenance is poor - lack of edging to lawns, lack of weeding in beds, self-seeders allowed run riot and out of control. It has become a garden without form, structure, control or maintenance, a mess.

And, yes, I am becoming with advancing years an even more grumpy person than I have always been. However, I believe that if have to pay to enter a garden then I am entitled to pass comment on it. 

I'm sure many of you have visited gardens here in Ireland, were charged, perhaps, 5Euro and then endured time in a sub-standard garden. There are many of them in the country though we all too often hear the comment that they are "lovely". It would be more honest to simply describe them as they are, comment on their design, plant content, plant use, level of maintenance etc. This is normal when people comment on a visit to a restaurant or on a book read but gardens are rarely given such honest appraisal.  

Paddy 

Moya, I left your quesion unanswered: Was I there before? Yes. Prior to the first visit I had read as many of Christopher Lloyd's books as I could get my hands on and enjoyed them greatly, loved his writing style and had great expectations of the gardens. After visiting, I believed his writing was fiction.

 Paddy

welcome back to both of you and as ever your account is both fascinating and honest as we knew it would be,  i will certainly bear in mind what you have said, if i ever get the chance to go!

You are perfectly entitled to your view and I don't think it means you're grumpy. Maybe if he was still alive he would agree with you and would revamp it. I was reading an article by Monty in the May edition of GW about how his Jewel Garden got completely out of hand and he has had to start again with it.

This happens to gardens all the time and it is one of the great challenges of gardening - nothing is static. It could be perfect one minute and then you could blink and it would be gone over....

However, I do think Christopher Lloyd was proud of being different and maybe his garden was different but not always in a good way.

I'll have to go and see for myself some day.

Paddy I greatly appreciate getting an honest appraisal of a garden.  It's not only the admission fee that's wasted going to see a sub standard garden but the journey costs, time and of course the opportunity cost of what you have decided not to do in order to fit this garden in.

People are afraid to be honest in their opinions of gardens as they think if they criticise, they're saying they could do better.  However a restaurant critic rarely owns and runs a restaurant and is not saying they could do better, they are just saying they know the standard that is expected in an establishment charging for a certain experience, and if the standard is not delivered they will point this out.

Anne, I think you have hit the nail on the head: if people open their garden to the public and charge people to enter, then people are entitled to expect a certain standard and the garden owners should expect fair comment on the garden also. 

There was a boom of interest in gardening over the last twenty years or so and a great number of people opened their gardens to the public when the gardens were really not of a standard suitable for this.

Reading through Shirley Lanigan's recent book, One Hundred Best Gardens in Ireland (or some such similar title) some thoughts struck me: One might be that Shirley is very kind to people and generous in her appraisals; another that she included gardens in this book which didn't deserve to be there; that if these were the 100 best, then we really have very poor gardens in the country; finally, that some editor at the publishers put the wrong title on the book - it might have been called "100 Gardens to visit in Ireland" but the use of the word "best" adds a different dimension and expectation.

Paddy 

I wasn't inclined to buy it Paddy (though I did ask the library to purchase a copy) for the very reason I find she gushes about every garden, and in Irish garden magazine she had wriiten an article along the lines of 'If you can't say anything nice don't say anything at all'.  She had been inspired to write the article after hearing a tourist in Muckross house exclaim that they thought the garden was poor and nothing on Mt Stewart.  Ms Lanigan was aghast that anyone could say anything bad about a garden and was not comparing like with like.  If fairness there is no entrance fee to Muckross house, however the 'tourist' would have had plenty other costs getting there and I felt should have been allowed comment on the experience.

Anne, ours is a small country and the gardening community is, consequently, very small indeed. In this situation, it is difficult to be critical of people's work - one could very quickly be left with few friends. You can understand then why Shirley Lanigan might take the approach of saying nothing when there is nothing good to say. Reading her reviews of gardens then becomes somewhat like reading people's references - you read them to identify what is not mentioned as this was an area the writer could not comment on favourably.

Re her latest book, I think the fault is in the title which could be regarded as either misleading or inaccurate.  

Paddy 

From The Telegraph: How's this for a little garden comment from Helen Townshend writing on the Chelsea Flower Show:

"The garden I really don’t want to take home is Nigel Dunnett’s RBC New Wild Garden. Everyone else loves it but I think the purpose-made insect habitats look as if they were made in beginners’ basket-weaving class and there’s a picture on the back of the pavilion that looks like a hairy bum awaiting a much-needed waxing. Ahem. Sorry. Perhaps it’s just me." 

Paddy 

Copy and paste went funny there, apologies. Paddy

An honest account and it makes people feel relief to read if they have been having similar thoughts but feel they can't express them because everyone else is gushing.

Right how about this?  "The Gracedieu Guide to gardens to visit in Ireland": an annual guide with star ratings from you both.  That's something I would spend money on as though it's a small country its a long way from Mt Stewart to Dereen gardens (don't get me started on the latter - I was lured there by a glossy coffee table book!) and like a restaurant guide people would appreciate knowing whether they were wasting their precious time travelling to any of these.  Something to keep you busy (ier) in your retirement.

Whew, what a cutting exchange. Here's my tuppence worth.

I would just like to say that, although you make fair points, the majority of people who open to the public in Ireland do so occasionally and the fee goes to a charity.

Many of these people have been slightly pressurised to open and certainly wouldn't do so if they were to encounter the level of criticism that demanded 'RHS standard grass edges', for example.

I think there are two standards under discussion here...

1) Gardens that open comercially and without appointment, attracting the general public

2) Those that open occasionally for charity, attracting mostly gardeners

well said rachel. i admire anyone who puts themselves, their family and their garden forward for opening to the scrutiny of others.i  especially admire  those who open on rare occasions for charity . its bloody hard work with weather in your favour and doing it simply for your own enjoyment. i have garden buddies call by from time to time, i feel duty bound to tidy up andhave the grass cut, some homebaking ready etc etc. id love to open one day for charity but dont think i could cope with the stress.

WELL DONE TO ALL OPEN GARDENS AND THEIR GARDENERS.

I totally agree with Rachel. And as Feverfew states it is bloody hard work to have a garden open and looking good enough for scrutiny. People who open their gardens for charity are to be praised highly, and deserve our full support. It's in everyone's interest to attend as many of those openings as possible, in the name of charity. Isn't it better than sponsoring someone for doing a walk or something. At least everybody gets to enjoy the opening and the chance to see how other people 'do it'. And the charity's funds are on the up, even if it's only by a small amount. It's a 'win-win' situation.

Rachel, Feverfew & Jacinta, I have made no mention whatsoever of people opening their gardens for charity and made no comment or criticism of this group of people. Introducing this would only digress from my comments above.  There are not "two standards under discussion here" (Rachel above) at all. It has been purely aimed at "gardens that open commercially... attracting the general public". (Rachel above)

My comments are made purely with those gardens which are open in a commercial sense in mind. There seems to be huge reluctance here to make comment on such gardens and I find it difficult to understand. If we visit a restaurant we don't feel inhibited about passing comment afterwards but if we visit a garden we seem to feel obliged to  pass only complimentary comments when, if fact, there are many such gardens in the country which are not of a good standard and it is not at all unreasonable to comment on them.

Paddy 

But, Paddy. I'm not the sort to complain in a restaurant anyway ;-)

Well I certainly am. ANd Steve usually tries to shut me up and tells me to stop making such a big deal of it.

Paddy, if I didn't like a garden, be it for commercial gain or otherwise, I would speak my mind. Mind you, if it was a friends garden, I would exercise a bit of discretion obviously. But we also have to remember that no two gardens are alike, and that includes the 'commercial' ones too. And beauty is in the eye of the beholder, or not! You are never going to please everyone. And it's the individuals choice whether or not to visit. 

Rachel, you are obviously one of the easily pleased people of the world, a wonderful attribute to have. I wouldn't be great to make a fuss in a restaurant either though I would mention anything which I thought was unreasonably poor quality, preferring to eat up and go, cut my losses so to speak but afterwards I wouldn't feel at all inhibited in telling others of my displeasure and wouldn't return to the restaurant again. 

Personally, I resent the pretention and deception of people opening poor quality gardens to the public (in a commercial sense) and feel there is every entitlement to pass comment on these gardens - negative comment when appropriate and positive when deserved. I have no trouble thinking of some such garden which are not up to standard but where the owners have no reluctance in charging visitors rather dearly. 

Paddy 

By the way, just in case every garden gate in the country is closed against me, I would not think in this way about other gardens at all. Visiting friends gardens is as much for the pleasure of the company as of the garden. It is a sharing of experiences and not a commercial situation. Different entirely. Likewise, I would welcome people to my own garden to enjoy their company, have the chat etc and wouldn't regard it as having the garden on display, so to speak. 

These, like the open-for-charity gardens are different entirely.

Paddy 

Yes, Paddy, I resent the pretention too. I know what you're talking about indeed. But unfortunately you actually have to go and view these gardens before you can form an opinion on them. And sometimes that's too late. But yes, I would also tell another person if it was poor standard.

Jacinta,

Sorry, I missed your comment while writing.

I'm not sure if it is a question of just liking or not liking a garden. As you say, everybody has their own taste and own likes and dislikes and you must allow and accept this. But, say, you visited a garden (commercial) and the grass wasn't cut or the edges of the lawn weren't tidied, or there was a lot of weed in the beds, or it was obvious there wasn't  much gardening going on at all. It's this kind of situation I'm critical of . It would be like going to a restaurant and finding the tablecloth dirty or there was not wine glass - that kind of thing. There are commercial gardens with such poor standards and they don't deserve to be praised. 

Paddy 

Yes, absolutely. And I wouldn't be afraid to voice my opinion either. But I would probably do it in as nice a way as possible (without being 'gushy') as I am a big chicken!

Okay, Paddy. I see your point.

I would have no compunction about being candid in garden recommendations to friends but would not be 'on-line critical' of anywhere.

A particular garden springs to mind from last summer when hubby had to tell me to shut up in my criticism as someone might hear. We had paid a lot for all six to visit and I did feel that more of an effort should have been made. 

There you have it, Rachel, you were ripped off. You paid dearly - for six of you - for a garden that wasn't worth the visit. You expected a certain standard of garden - and had every right to expect it as you were being charged for it but it was a rip off. That's what annoys me and it annoys me that there are so many such garden, taking advantage of boomtime Ireland, with more neck than talent or hard work but who have no compunction whatsoever taking your hard-earned money. 

YET, you will read reviews of this garden and others the same where the gardens are praised and built up to be something they are not at all. This is dishonest and misleading and an example of poor standards in writing. Why will someone simply not say something like, "the maintenance was poor; the footpaths were too narrow, the delphiniums should have been staked a month ago and they wouldn't now be lying on the ground" etc etc. Just fair, accurate comment.

Paddy 

Here are a few comments on Chelsea Flower Show gardens which I have "borrowed" from another site which I think show what I consider fair comment on gardens - there are positive and negative comments and this is perfectly acceptable and normal and I cannot understand why we are so inclined to shy away from it.

"The Laurent-Perrie Garden...was very simple and elegant, with a subtle bronze and pink palette below beautiful mulit-stemmed Parrotia persica standards" 

"Although perhaps impractical in several respects, I enjoyed the dense plantings of flowers, herbs, vegetables and fruit trees in the M&G Garden, especialy when the sun came onto it later in the day." 

And further: 

"The Times Eureka Garden in association with RBG Kew... somehow didn't work very well, although the planting was attractive. The garden structure...was interesting but not terribly attractive."

"I didn't care for the orange and white flooring in the Royal Botanic Gardens Melbourne's Australian Garden, but the planting, using Australian species, was diversely interesting. " 

This type of comment strikes me as being far more accurate, informative, honest and desirable in garden writing than the so often read, "a lovely garden" - vague, lazy and misleading. 

Paddy 

Paddy was making reference to a garden that was commercially open to the public as you call it and so was I.  I was merely  saying I would like to be able to find an honest review of gardens open (commeriially) to the public so as I could decide as to which one to visit. 

I am lucky enough to have got to know Paddy and would ask him his opinion on a garden I was thinking of visiting to see is it worth my while.  It's not a matter of having similar tastes but i know he will tell me 'if there's gardening going on'.  Many of you on this website will have friends ye too can ask and ye will tell them whether it's worth going.

A visitor to our shores does not have this resource so wouldn't it be fair if there was a guide that rated gardens in the same way that there are guides rating restaurants, hotels, golf courses etc.

I think, Paddy, when someone says its 'lovely' they are just unwilling to offend, or they are hoping that other people will criticize for them.  I think people are afraid to rock the boat. And because of that, the standard remains acceptable. So if people had the courage of their convictions, the standard would improve greatly, and we would all get value for money.

Anne, on the subject of garden guidebooks: most are written by the tourist board and seeing a garden in one of these is not an indication that the garden is of a standard which makes it worth visiting; it simply indicates that the garden owner paid the appropriate fee to have the garden included. 

Paddy 

Jacinta, you are perfectly correct. We are all so polite - in public, at least - and then go home to grumble. 

Certainly, there are many gardens which are not great gardens but which have been written up as being great and this is quite dishonest.

Ours is a small country and it is difficult for people to be critical of gardens when they will have to meet with these people again. Many people cannot abide criticism and take offense, perfectly understandable but critics, generally, don't mean to offend.

Paddy 

These guide books should be written by the 'common gardener'.

Anne, Ladygardener, Mary has asked me to say that the geranium you enquired about are G. magnificum, a good blue-flowering species, which, unfortunately, flowers only once in the year. Cut it down completely after flowering and it will produce nice fresh clean foliage.

Paddy